Episode 7: Unmasking Misinformation: Donell Probst on How Media Literacy Empowers You

Our guest for this episode: Donnell Probst is Deputy Director for the National Association for Media Literacy Education (NAMLE). She oversees operations, events, and human resources and leads strategy for branding, communications, and membership. Her career spans management and leadership roles in both nonprofit and corporate sectors, including libraries, special education, insurance, and the creative arts. She has also taught media literacy at the community college and university level.

Probst received a Master's in Library and Information Science from San Jose State University and a B.A. in Mass Communications and Media Studies from Arizona State University. She lives in St. Louis with her husband, has three children, and has two rescue puppies, Hans and Franz.

Our guest interviewer for this episode: Mahasin Ameen is an Assistant Librarian at IU Indianapolis’ University Library, and adjunct faculty to the IU Indianapolis’ Luddy School of Informatics, Computer Science, & Engineering’s Library and Information Science graduate program. Her work focuses on fostering digital equity and enhancing the research skills of students, particularly in the context of information literacy. By guiding students in research, evaluation, and making evidence-based decisions she helps empower students in academia and in their day-to-day lives. Ameen is committed to supporting access to information, especially for marginalized communities, and works to ensure that library resources and instruction meet the evolving needs of today’s information environment.

The Center of Excellence for Women & Tech is a welcoming community on Indiana University’s campus that strives to empower women students, faculty, and alumni to expand their leadership skills, build confidence about technology, and foster community and collaboration between all fields of study and industry. The Center’s Instagram handle is @IUwomenandtech. Please follow us there!

Explore NAMLE for more information. In addition, you can find more about the media literacy week events hosted by NAMLE.

Read more about the Media Monsters at NAMLE, such as Headline Hellion, on the NAMLE website.

Big thanks to Rebecca Ramsey at IU's Center for Language Technology whose work makes this podcast possible! Since 1959, CeLT has overseen the language and computer labs in Ballantine Hall, with the mission of providing the highest quality services to support language teaching, learning, and research at Indiana University.  Find out more about their services and resources on the CeLT website.

In addition, you can also learn more about our podcast guest and reach out to her here.

Anshu:

Hello and welcome to the Women of IU podcast, the show that highlights and celebrates the important work women do every day at IU and hopes to inspire future women leaders. This podcast is brought to you by the Center of Excellence for Women in Technology. I'm Anshu Roja Selvamani.

Today IU's Mahasin Ameen will interview the Deputy Director for the National Association for Media Literacy Education, also referred to as NAMLE, Donell Probst. Mahasin Ameen has a special interest in media literacy and digital equity. This episode is a special episode to highlight Media Literacy Week, a national initiative to bring more awareness to media literacy and education. Mahasin Ameen is an assistant librarian at IU Indianapolis University Library and adjunct faculty to the IU Indianapolis Luddy School of Informatics, Computer Science and Engineering's Library and Information Science graduate program. Mahasin's work focuses on fostering digital equity and enhancing the research skills of students, particularly in the context of information literacy. By guiding students in research, evaluation, and making evidence-based decisions, she helps empower students in academia and in their day-to-day lives.

And our guest for today, Donell Probst, is Deputy Director for the National Association for Media Literacy Education, or, NAMLE, she oversees operations, events, and human resources and leads strategy for branding, communications, and membership. Her career spans management and leadership roles in both nonprofit and corporate sectors, including library, special education, insurance, and the creative arts. She's also taught media literacy at the university level. Additionally, we're excited to announce that Donnell Probst will be the keynote speaker for IU's Media Literacy Week kickoff event on Monday, October 28th at 4.30 p.m. Her talk will be titled, “You're Here, Charting the Course for Media Literacy for all”. Check the show notes at womanandtech.indiana.edu for more information on how to join the online keynote by Donnell Probst.

Before we dive into the conversation, please rate and review our show on Apple Podcasts and follow the center on Instagram at @iuwomanandtech. You can find out more about today's guests in the show notes and at womanandtech.indiana.edu. Now we're going to hand things off to Professor Ameen and Director Probst. Please enjoy the show.

Mahasin Ameen:

Hello everyone. My name is Mahasin Ameen.

Donell Probst:

And hello everyone. I'm Donnell Probst.

Mahasin Ameen:

Excellent. So, one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is- as a librarian, I teach students how to find information and track it back to an original source. I think that so many people are now getting their news primarily from social media, which to me is kind of the berry picking model that we use in library science. So, can you kind of talk about some of the benefits and some of the problems that exist with that?

Donell Probst:

Yeah, I think we're seeing a shift in general in news consumption. I think we've seen that shift for a while. The internet obviously drastically changed how we access information and also who can create information. And so, I think for us, one of the things we often think about is, yes, of course you want to really go in depth and dig into information, really understand it, but we also have to meet people where they're at, right. And if people are on social media, if they are, you know, reading short form story, you know, news stories. It's really about helping them find the best quality information for where, you know, the way in which they consume information. And so, you know, we struggle, I think, as everyone is in this moment of time and history where there is kind of pushback on what is good information, you know, how are we defining that? Who's deciding what is good information? Who are the authorities on those types of questions? And so, I think that there is just something that I think is and will be a struggle for a bit of time here as I think with any new technology as it comes out and it's developed, we have to respond to it, right? And we have to adjust the way that we're doing things. And I think we're still in that adjustment period. It's a big adjustment. This has been a big one. You know, sometimes these adjustments aren't as significant, but this has been a big one. And I think it has really changed how we have to think about how we're teaching that access point and authority and all of these other tough questions that we have right now.

Mahasin Ameen:

Let's start off at the beginning. How would you define media literacy?

Donell Probst:

Well, NAMLE has a pretty set definition we've been using that has been adopted quite a bit across our community and beyond. And that is that media literacy is the ability to access, analyze, evaluate, create and act using all forms of media. And that is really where we build the foundation of our work. It is the foundation of our founding documents, like our core principles for media literacy education. And it's actually also how we structure U.S. Media Literacy Week is around those five definitions and what each of those means and how we apply those to our lives and our settings that we live and work in.

Mahasin Ameen:

That's amazing. I love that. So, speaking of questions, I find that sometimes when it comes to information seeking, people feel that asking questions can be kind of disrespectful. I personally don't believe that. I am team ask me all the questions, get down to any type of source and context. I think that that's critical. How do you engage with people who are hesitant to ask questions to get that information?

Donell Probst:

Yeah, I think this goes back to really like with NAMLE like one of our foundational documents is our key questions document and you know we really basis the entire process of media literacy around asking questions right and it's you know and I always say like and I'm sure you can relate to this as a librarian like I don't know all the answers but I can find you the answer. Give me any question, I will find you the answer. I might not know it off the top of my head. So, I think that it is really from a media literally process, it is about asking questions. It's very much centered on asking questions and knowing when to ask questions, what questions to ask, how those questions differentiate between sources and types of information and things like that. So, I think it is difficult to really engage with information if you're not asking questions because some of the questions we need answered the most are those we are most hesitant to ask.

Mahasin Ameen:

I definitely agree with that. Now, when we talk about media literacy, I feel like part of that is having a democratically engaged population. Can you talk about how it's important that, you know, when we watch things like presidential or vice-presidential debates that we fact check?

Donell Probst:

Yeah, I think fact checking is such an interesting topic right now because I think for many years, fact checking was really kind of at the center. Like that was what people were associating media literacy with was that it's you know, it is mis and disinformation, it's making sure your facts are correct, it's making sure that sources are quote unquote correct. But really information is so nuanced, right? Like there are so many ways in which we can get information wrong. And so, I think that fact checking aspect is kind of like ground zero, right. Like we have to be able to discern between, you know, things that are truly right and truly, you know, just actual factual information and information that is out of context and things like that. And there are things that are just, we can say for sure that this is a fact, or this is not a fact. And I think, you know, sometimes I think we saw this with, you know, a comment a couple of years ago about alternative facts and things like that. That water has been so muddied in the recent years that it makes it really difficult for those who are not as skilled in kind of discerning information in the various ways that we receive it, to be able to understand those nuances, right. Like the nuance is getting more and more difficult to kind of flesh out as you as you're going through information. So, I think having kind of that base level ability to say, this is what we know is true. And maybe this is something that we just need to explain more deeply or think about more deeply. Like those are two different things. And I think sometimes we have in recent years been lacking that ability to agree on basic facts, which is a difficult place to start from, especially if you're making decisions about who you're voting for, if a policy benefits you or not, you know. So, these are things that are very important for people to be able to engage democratically.

Mahasin Ameen:

So you use two very interesting terms, use the term disinformation and the term misinformation. So, for me, disinformation is blatantly false as opposed to misinformation, which is maybe a news anchor misspoke when they said something. Can you kind of explore the differences between the two and where they kind of diverge?

Donell Probst:

Yeah, and I think too, like one of the things is we often talk about like official sources of information, but mis and disinformation, I think is also really important to talk about when we're talking about how we communicate with each other as a society, just individuals living in the same communities. I think, you know, misinformation is just as you said, it is something that, you know, there's a misunderstanding or you misheard or miss, you know, don't really get the, the full understanding of the information. So, you might repeat something that you're unaware is not, you know, accurate or within the right context or whatever it might be. Disinformation is really when there is some intent behind it, right. There's an intentional, there's an intention that is driving the sharing of that information. And that could be something as simple as like, I'm not interested in knowing if this is true, false, in context, etc, I am interested in the fact that it furthers my narrative. And so therefore, you know, my kind of lack of engagement with that information and before sharing it out or repeating it is what kind of crosses that line into disinformation. I think, you know, there's a lot of different, you can get into malinformation, like there's a lot of, you know, various terms we can get into, but there is definitely a distinction between, you know, having a lack of information and sharing something and understanding or not necessarily being concerned with the quality of the information and still sharing it.

Mahasin Ameen:

How important is it to read the entire article and not just the headline?

Donell Probst:

Well, we have these lovely media monsters at NAMLE and we have one called the Headline Hellion. This is something that I think everyone struggles with and myself included. We are busy, busy, busy people. And you read a headline of an article, it comes from a story, it comes from Reuters or AP news, something that you're like, okay, and sometimes they get it wrong too, grossly wrong. Sometimes their headlines are really misleading and just not the quality that you would assume from that source. And I think that's why we should always strive to be doing our due diligence and making sure we're reading articles and reading the full article, especially if we're going to share or make a decision based on that information. I also think we need to give ourselves a little grace. We're in like a fire hose of information right now, and it is really difficult to keep up with everything and the idea of fact checking and reading every single article. And it's a lot. It's a lot to ask. It's a lot to ask even for people like myself who fully understand the importance of that. And so, I think giving ourselves grace and understanding that it is of the utmost importance, but that also we're all human.

Mahasin Ameen:

I like to tell my students that they're already doing a lot of fact checking. I ask them generally if they've rented an apartment or if they've purchased a car or even if they've ordered something online in the last few weeks and asking them about their reading reviews, looking at manufacturer warranties. They would never move into an apartment complex without reading about it first. And so, I think that a lot of students have trouble kind of translating their everyday research into academic research. But I like to use the example of, oh, you see on Facebook that your favorite celebrity has passed away. What's the first thing you do?

Donell Probst:

Yeah, I mean, do they go to Twitter to verify?

Mahasin Ameen:

I mean, a lot of them just say, yeah, I Google it. And I'm like, absolutely, because you know, you saw it on social media. You know that social media can't be trusted. And so, your instinct is to go to a search engine and verify if it's true. It's already second nature in a lot of the things that you do.

Donell Probst:

Yeah, I agree. I think it's very interesting that, you know, there's so often, and we get this a lot with educators as well when we're talking about integrating media literacy into curriculums and across curriculums and really thinking about how we can embed it, from early on till the later years and how this isn't necessarily something that they aren't already doing. Like I think a lot of educators are doing some level of media literacy education and they don't realize it, just like our students are already engaging in media literacy practices and don't realize it. And so, I think part of this is a communications problem, it's a PR problem for media literacy, right. And that we, as society, we don't have a broad enough understanding of what media literacy is and how it translates to different environments. And so, it makes it a little difficult, especially for organizations like NAMLE to really take on the concept of scaling media literacy education, both in schools and outside of compulsory education. So, I think it's such a perfect example of like one of the many challenges that media literacy faces today. But I think it's also a really easy bridge, you know, when you can articulate that to students like you do in your class.

Mahasin Ameen:

Thank you. So, my research is primarily with international students and academic integrity, academic honesty. To me, that is tied very closely in with media literacy and understanding kind of your environment and your climate. Can you kind of speak to how it's best to engage with students that may come from a different culture to get them to understand, you know, the importance of media literacy.

Donell Probst:

Yeah, it's interesting. And I think I mentioned this yesterday, but our when we spoke, but our our community has a lot of international engagement, largely because a lot of places around the globe don't have a focus on the literacy. They don't have organizations who are promoting it. They don't have national initiatives, we don't either here in the US. We don't have a national direction for media literacy, but we have a lot of organizations and people who are doing work. And I think it is most difficult when you have students who are coming from areas or people who are coming from areas where some of their basic structures of their communication system, their press system, things like that are very different than ours. And so those are huge differences when it's, you know, because some things are not going to be possible in other places. And we have to be cognizant of that. If we're, you know, being kind of a voice and, and advising others on how they can, you know, really engage with media literacy, help grow, you know, and scale. It's important and things like that, because, you know, they're, they might be coming from situations that are just not going to allow for the, the freedom that we have to engage media literacy on so many different levels. So, it's really, you know, is very different from person to person and it's thinking about, you know, really their background, where are they coming from? What's their context and kind of present understanding and, you know, how can we kind of tailor that to advise them on ways that can be beneficial for them and useful given the situation that they're in.

Mahasin Ameen:

That's really interesting. Is there a point where it's too early to engage students in media literacy?

Donell Probst:

No. The answer is no. No, I think, you know, it's media is everywhere, right. Like it is not, I think so many people attach media literacy or equate it to digital literacy and using technology and using devices. And I think one of the things we often get pushback about is that, oh, we want to put a device in every kid's hands. We want to put them all on social media at five years old. You know, there's lots of kind of these accusations of what media literacy is not. And I think the, again, lack of understanding is that media literacy can be done with a picture book. You know, you can ask questions about the characters you're seeing, the scene that it's set in, you can ask questions about the story itself. Like there are lots and lots of ways that you can engage students at very, very young ages with media literacy that are not technically involved. But you can also, you know, I know a lot of parents are, you know, when my kids were younger, phones were just starting to come out and you know, really becoming prevalent. And you know, we were at a restaurant, I would hand my phone to my kids so that they could watch a movie or something and we could have adult conversation. You know, we're giving kids devices. And I think that's a hard, you know, you can't, it's hard to put that toothpaste back in the tube, right. Like that is, that is our, that is our culture now. And you know, for better or for worse, it's, you know, what can we do to minimize harm? What can we do to improve technology? You know, there's so much we can do and it can start as early as we're willing to engage with kids on it, even toddlers, you know, you can do it with toddlers.

Mahasin Ameen:

I love that. One thing that you said was about reducing harm. I think that an important element of media literacy is understanding what not to put on the internet. What kind of, we've all seen it happen. If you, if you don't want anyone to know, never put it on the internet because the internet never forgets. But can you kind of talk about some of the dangers that can be associated with a lack of media literacy, like, romance schemes that people get catfished for or, having your digital data leaked.

Donell Probst:

I think there are so many potential harms. I actually, you know, I struggle because I hesitate to kind of label the, label it broadly as harms. Cause I think there's so many layers to that onion. There is, I often say, that this is not just, a technology problem. This is also a people problem, right. And that's, I think what you're getting at is like, this lack of skill is what causes the harm more so than a piece of technology itself or an application itself. If you have the skills to understand how to navigate and how not to navigate something, that is where you're going to reduce harm. Taking away the technology, taking away the device itself, there will be more technology on the horizon. There will be more places to find yourself in harmful and unsavory positions. And so, if we're practicing the skills rather than focusing on, you know, the harm you're going to prevent those things that we would consider harm. So, I think that's a very important distinction that often is not made. And it's one that we're definitely, you know, really pushing because we've seen a lot of pushback lately, as I'm sure you know, about, you know, what age do we give kids devices? What age should they have access to social media? But we're not having a conversation about how giving them access at 16 versus 13 without education changes their behavior on an application. The science isn't there for that. And we know that media literacy education works. And so, if we can provide education that reduces potential harms by giving them a process they can apply to any technology that's out there, rather than trying to target and, you know, fix something that has popped up in society. I think we're going to be much better off for the long term. We won't have to be continually starting over to teach something about a new product. We simply give them access, analyze, evaluate, create, act, and think about their role in each of those steps with every piece of technology and, and technology application.

Mahasin Ameen:

I want to talk a little bit about the algorithm and why media literacy is important.

Donell Probst:

So, algorithms are fascinating. I think, you know, unfortunately, I think AI has unseated algorithms. It's kind of the like, you know, exciting and flashy thing of the day in media literacy. But I think algorithms are fascinating because they can be both great and harmful. You know, it's like, I love curating my TikTok algorithm so that it feeds me dogs and, you know, babies doing funny things and, you know, like comedians and all of the things that I love in life. And I can pass and watch and say I don't like that and like create the perfect stream of entertainment for myself that will then keep me hooked on this piece of technology, right. Like, so there we go.

Mahasin Ameen:

To me, there's that kind of a push and pull when it comes to understanding kind of media literacy. I have a Kroger Plus card. I have M perks, that is giving a company or corporation insight into my buying habits in exchange for coupons. But I think that some people don't realize that understanding that is a part of media literacy and engaging in society.

Donell Probst:

Yeah, I mean, any, you know, as the saying goes, if it's, what is it, if it's free, then you're the product or something like that. There's some saying around that. I'm sure I'm butchering that, but eventually, if you're not paying for something, then there is a way that they are using your information to make money, right. Like you're not, nothing is free in life, right? And so, I think that is an understanding and in the classes I've taught with my students, there is a divide usually. There are the students who say, I'm fine with that and I don't care. Like, and that is part of media literacy, right. It's like understanding the information and, and how people are using your information, understanding how an algorithm works or how Google keeps your information and making a choice about whether or not you're okay with that. But you can't make that choice if you don't have the information to understand the issue holistically, right. And so that is media literacy, like understanding that I know that Kroger is using my information, but I still want the coupon. So, I am going to continue to use my card and give them this information and that is the choice I'm making. That is media literacy. And I think that is actually at the core of this argument about how media literacy somehow is like telling people what to think. And it's not, it's understanding how to get the information you need to make the choice that you want to make based on your values, based on your beliefs. And this goes with a Kroger grocery card, it goes with TikTok, it goes with using Google or using a public computer or how you give people your information in like an election cycle, right. Like there are endless ways people are making money and profit off of all of our information. And we have that choice, but it's hard to make a choice if you don't have that information. And so understanding how the algorithms work and how data and privacy collection works. Like those are all aspects of media literacy.

Mahasin Ameen:

Yes, a thousand percent. And I think that it's important to understand that like, anywhere you go, you have to practice media literacy.

Donell Probst:

Right. Everywhere. Like it is embedded and ingrained in our everyday lives, which is why it's, you know, boggles our minds that we haven't gotten to a place of really scaling this nationally at this point, because we've seen for, you know, 10 years now when, you know, the internet has really become prevalent in our lives. It's affected our elections. It's affected, you know, students and their ability to, you know, have relationships and things like that. It's like, how are we not focusing on this and giving everybody these skills at all levels.

Mahasin Ameen:

I agree with that completely. So how do you plan on celebrating Media Literacy Week?

Donell Probst:

Well, we have quite the celebration this year. This is our 10th anniversary of NAMLE hosting U.S. Media Literacy Week. So, we're very excited about that because it seems like just yesterday, we started with just a couple of events and like, I don't know, maybe a hundred people who, you know, wanted to be involved and sign up for things. Last year, we were over 900 people who had signed up, to either we have four categories that people can sign up with. So, it's either to be a supporter, which is someone, you're sharing it with your friends, your family, your students, your colleagues, sharing on social media, just really like kind of helping us get the word out. There is educator. So, if you're someone who is conducting a lesson or a movie screening or something like that in the context of media literacy, doing a lesson in your classroom, your library, wherever it may be. We’ve got creators who create content, who are willing to share it out during that week for others to use. And then we've got organizers who are organizing big events and doing things like this podcast and your media literacy week at IU, which is, you know, one of our favorites out of all of our community because Pamela Morris, shout out to Pamela and her team have done an amazing job with that at IU every year. And so, yeah, so we're really excited. We've got a whole bunch of events. Some are in person, some are virtual, but anyone can join it's free. Everything is free. That is our one week of the year that we blow it out and say, everybody join us. We don't care who you are, where you're from, what you do for a living. If you're interested in media literacy, come see what it's about. And so, they can go to mlw@namle.org and sign up for media literacy week to participate and then they'll get access to everything. So, we’ve got a lot going on. I think we've got events with Thompson Reuters and we've got an AI literacy summit and we have an event at the McCain Institute. We have an event with Penn State. We've got a PBS Kids event. We're doing a playlist with YouTube kids. Like we've just, we’ve got a lot going on.

Mahasin Ameen:

So for those of you at other IU campuses, make sure that you check your campus calendar to see what media literacy week events are happening near you. Thank you so much, Donnell, for allowing me to interview for the Women of IU podcast. My name is Mahasin Ameen. I am an assistant librarian at IU Indianapolis.

Donell Probst:

Awesome, thank you so much. I'm so thrilled to be here and really appreciate all you all are doing to help support media literacy and Media Literacy Week. So, I look forward to seeing all of your events and thank you so much.

Anshu:

Thanks for listening to the Women of IU podcast. Reminder to check the show notes on womanandtech.indiana.edu for more information about this episode and IU's upcoming Media Literacy Week events. Before we go, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and follow the Center on Instagram at @iuwomenandtech. This podcast was recorded by the Center for Language Technology here at IU, so we want to give them a big thank you for their support and work. Then stay tuned for the next episode of the Women of IU Podcast. I'm Anshu. Thanks for listening, everyone.